KW 1.03 Balance Thread

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 10/8/09 5:43:42 PM

Hey everyone,

We have certainly taken notice to the massive 200+ page thread with 50,000+ views for KW 1.03 on GameReplays.org and the many threads on our boards here as well. As much as I'd like to see us patch C&C 3, I believe Kane's Wrath is more deserving of another balance update before we look at C&C 3 again. The game has a lot of evolving yet to accomplish and with Ladder Season 3 on the horizon, this is a great injection of fuel Kane's Wrath needs.

I'll keep this short and simple, and I kindly ask for our own sanity and red-eyes, that you do as well so we can easily measure and assess your feedback.

What is this thread?
- post your brief balance suggestions for KW 1.03
- give concise reasoning without long winded responses
- suggestions should be specific with clarity
- you may suggest overall issues
- you may post key exploits or bugs inhibiting the balance

This thread is not...
- a place for flaming, put down arguing, bickering
- do not post essays as we'd like everyone to have a fair opportunity
- a promised timeline for KW 1.03

In the end, we want good feedback so we can assess what measured and calculated data-driven balance changes we should look in to for KW 1.03. We absolutely want to inject KW with another balance update during the Ladder Season, but we cannot make promises as we don't want to unfulfill. What we can do is get a clear concise feedback list so we've got our action list in hand.

The floor is open. Lets take the spirit of all the great balance debate threads and turn it into something actionable in this one.

We will be monitoring this thread, this week.

Thanks!
APOC

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 4/21/09 5:15:44 PM

First!

Now for patch 1.03, I would like some of the proposed following changes:

1. Activate mod support if this patch is final. Mod sdk or no mod sdk, we need some mod support activated no matter what. The most important mod for KW just happens to be a wall mod because we need walls in KW. The others are changeable through INI files which are given from the CNC3 mod sdk.

2. Increase the Avatar's cost to 2500 from 2200. This should reduce spam on building Avatar late game plays. And rather than sacrificing units to upgrade itself should include upgrade options with a small cost such as flame upgrade for 800, beam upgrade for 500 or stealth detection for 300.

3. Fix AI on harvesters collecting independent tiberium that are not on tiberium fields, from support powers such as ichor seed or seed tiberium, and from destroyed tiberium spikes or silos. This has not been fixed since C&C3 version 1.00. Harvesters don't collect independent tiberium continuously; instead they collect one small batch of that and then goes back to the refinery to unload.

4. Optional feature: include English FMV subtitles to all language versions of C&C3 and KW including the English version. RA3 has that. Even C&C3/KW has them but only on foreign versions.

5. Make the FPS limit in KW to 60 instead of 30 due to higher system requirements.

Hey Apoc, I get the feeling this thread isn't getting the attention it deserves on the forums here. I think it may be because its stickied. I for one rarely ever check to see what's stickied and go straight to read what's not stickied. Just a head's up. Also, purplescrin's idea of nerfing the avatar is a horrible idea. Mammoths already beat avatars in 1v1 with good effeciency and can reverse move, fire on the move, do not suffer 100% damage from rockets and can shoot air to a limited effect. Avatars on the other hand are quite embarassing when it comes to such actions and definitely need to keep their price at $2200.

You wont get mod support, its the game side parts of the mod support that are the difficult bits not the SDK.
More specifically to give mod support to KW they would need to:
1.Add support for the -modconfig switch
2.Add support for loading the mod.manifest file
3.Add MP3 audio support for music
and possibly more.
All of that is HARD and time consuming.
And not worth it for EA given the focus is on RA3 now.

Hi Apoc, my thoughts on some balance. May not suite everyone, but it's what I see that could see some attention to

Scrin:
Stasis Shield - increase cost 15-25% It's too effective along with a teleported phased Hexapod in your base
The other support power (I cant remember the name off top of my head - the one that is the meteorite Tiberium strike) - This one needs a damage buff or a price decrease. It's not worth the $4000
Mastermind/prodigy - increase cool down time for the teleport

Planet Assault Carrier - Increase HP & or damage ~10% - In regards to the new upgraded AA, it needs something here..

Nod:
Flame tank - Does not follow attack orders very well, 'specially BH flame tank. Also, sometimes it doesn't fire in the direction of the target & it takes too much time for the turret to turn to attack
Beam cannon - Increase cost to $1200 (or reduce health 10%). I'd say cost increase is better

GDI
Juggy - the 1.02 fire rate is a bit too much. I think return back to normal rate, maybe increase damage slightly to compensate?
Repair APC - Increase the range of the repair radius
RIG - Increase deployed RIG HP 10-15%
Titan - Increase HP 5-10%

Epic units (general)
I think they are far too cost effective. Increase cost to about $6500 & increase build time. This would make them more cost effective against large armies. Also, this would make fast tech rush to Epic unit a more risky path, 'specially for the Hexapod rush

Communication centre (global)
Increase cost to $2000/20 - slightly increase the time it takes to tech up, also allows player that extra time for scouting

Bugs
Shadow Team - When selected into flight mode - half the squad is on the ground & other half in the air. If they move over Tiberium, they take damage.. Also, after they have landed, they won't place bomb charge on structures or attack units. You have to wait a few seconds before they will do anything.
BH, BH flame infantry - Comes as Veteran. However, must be promoted to veteran a 2nd time (rather than going to Elite) So like defeats the purpose of the being pre-veteran

Unit pathway/reverse move - Still some units are not follow orders. Specially with the reverse move. I find Harvesters & Beam cannons are the worst

Stealth detection. There is too many units that detect stealth. Not to mention the single player against AI, but for multiplayer. EG, rifle squad can detect mines even before they are running onto them.

The first thing that needs balance is AP ammo,nerf it, my suggestion is that you make its attack bonus 50% of what it gives now and lower its cost/build time to balance the big nerf.

Secondly i would suggest that you buff missile infantry in KW because compared to ra3 they are useless vs tanks when not in a vehicle or structure they die easily, 1 scoprion tank can kill 5 missile infantry because its very fast, in ra3 for example a tankbuster borrows underground and tanks cant get him so that he does his anti tank job fine, i think buffing their damage vs armor type units only will make them usefull only up to their usefull intention.

Thirdly i would like you to tweek the balance of the disintegrator, it has offcourse minor HP but his damage is mindstuning in a position where 1 militant squad and 1 rifleman squad can't beat them in 1v1.... the range buff was something needed but please give him a huge damage nerf and a big HP buff BUT the buff won't make him in the position to beat a militant in 1v1 again, so test his tweeking vs 1 militant.

Last... please i beg you do something about the AI of KW, after 1.01 it does nothing, open a single player skirmish and go vs a hard AI, it does nothing than making refs, it follows a script probably of "low_credits->build_ref" and then after he spends 3000 is low on credits again and build and then makes harvs and it follows this circle and makes 1 unit each 3-4 mins, this is due to 3k refs, and the scrin AI by making 3 disints early game can beat another non scrin AI, please don't let us offline players down again, fix it, my suggestion is that you put an option to go back to 2k refs only for single player, i offcourse know i can run the exe for version 1.0 but it still needs balance and then there are many bugs in 1.0........

Tatin ,MRT,wolverine are super rubbish,from 1.00 to 1.02.maybe 103 is either......

Regenerit wrote:Hey Apoc, I get the feeling this thread isn't getting the attention it deserves on the forums here. I think it may be because its stickied. I for one rarely ever check to see what's stickied and go straight to read what's not stickied.

True. There's usually nothing interesting in the stickies.

Everyone want something else. Makes it very hard for the patch to succeed.

Much people hate the ECO. I think its great, maybe more armor for the harvesters and by the way
GDI can't seed tiberium, which is very important for lategame. This will not be changed in a patch, thats clear.

Stuff everyone wants:

- selectable if playing with or without epics
- improved precise display of the ping, no one likes lag
- no teleportation under EMP (you can still teleport if you have selected the teleport option of your MM and also have selected an unit before its getting EMPed)
- phasefield persists much too long.
- disconnect = loss. I heard thats already working, if not, change it.
- desync..... if there is a possibility to figure out who cause one it must be implemented. Would improve the game 1001 times.
- commando should not crawl after blasting, their lifetime is too short anyway.

this is what i have in mind right now, to be continued...

At last my ever mentioned concern that apparently just i notice:

Online game slows down by selecting a group of specters, beamcannons, juggernouts.
Adding another unit to this selection speeds up the game so it could not be a hardware performance issue
Does not happen in single player or skirmish.
Tested with X1950XT, HD2900XT, HD4870, 8600gts (don't know with high end nvidias) under win xp 32 and vista 64.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 4/21/09 10:51:44 AM

Most important balance change is not allowing epics(specifically hexapod) to be teleported without mastermind garrison and making phase field run out while EMPed. Preferably epics should not be able to be phased fielded at all. This is almost universally agreed with the competitive high-level part of the community. Another important balance change is not allowing the Redeemer to be cloaked forever, cloaking should not be able to be applied to redeemer.

Besides those EXTREMELY important changes above, some minor but still needed changes:
-Juggernaut ROF increased from 3 sec to 4 second.(before 1.02 it was 5)
-Corrupter healing on hexapod reduced.
-Prodigy needs 1 or 2 second delay after using its teleport ability to capture, it is completely abused and impossible to stop in certain situations. Proved in PRO level games like with Technique.

btw- DO NOT BUFF TIBSPIKES WILL INCREASE BUILD ORDER POKER AND RUIN COMPETITIVE PLAY.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 4/21/09 9:46:24 AM

Nerf epics hp absolutely and remove any ability on them

MOST IMPORTANT Restore economy state to refs 2000 or 2500 and harvs 1400

Nerf Nod vein detonation and catalist, they op now

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 4/21/09 10:47:01 AM

Good to see that EA wants to change things. I’m not going to repeat balance changes other have post so far but there are some things to consider.

First of all the avatar:

Everyone agrees that it is not really good, but instead of buffing it attack you can better (if possible of course) that it upgrades just like the mechapede. That you can click on the avatar and upgrade it while it moves. Also to make the upgrades more cost effective reduce the price 40% to 33%.

This means you get something like this:

Beam upgrade cost 600/6 sec

Same as it is now but then remove the the 20% rof delay on both lasers

Flame upgrade cost 800/8

I think it is fine as it is now if the price is 800

Stealth upgrade cost 900/9[/i]

Makes the avatar stealth while moving and standing still + cloaks a small area around it. (Show an animation where that area is)

Bike upgrade 400/4[/i]

Give the avatar SD and maybe more sight range…

Explanation:

The whole reason behind this is to make it easier to upgrade the avatar. Mostly you don’t have the time to do it the way it is now. If you are in a battle you don’t have time upgrade the avatar. With this new change you can do it on the move and clicks which upgrades you see to fit. Also this removes the multiple salvage bug so it is 2 flies in 1 hit. I can understand that a change like this might be much to ask but I think you make a lot of people happy if you do.

Hexapod

Not possible to teleport it while in emp

Maximum 2 stackable corrupters

Phase doesn’t pause when emp’d (preferly make it not possible to phase whilst empd)

Explanation:
It goes without saying, but this tactic is quite to good. And in the hands of good players almost impossible to stop. If you do this good you well get an heroic hexapod every time.

Buggy

Reduce price back to 400, and/or make it not emp itself when using the coils. Let laser upgrade do more damage (50% or so) than normal gun to infantry.

Explanation:
This makes it a bit better, now it is only used for EMP with these changes it will be used for infantry, wich it is made for in the first place.

Epics

Double building time + when an epic dies make a cool down time of 2 minutes.

Explanation:

Make the epic less spammable, and increased the risk to build one. If yours is destroyed it take a long time to get a new one. If another player has still an epic left you need to adjust your strategy due the fact that you cannot build 1 new one very fast. Which is a good thing.

Mothership wormhole

Explanation:

This imbalance need to be removed

Tank and infantry interaction

Predator, Scorpion, Devourer tank, gunwalker, shard walker

Drive slower 60% slower for 2 seconds while running over tier 1 infantry. (makes the titan more worth also)

Mantis, Slingshot

Cannot run over infantry anymore.

Avatar, tripod, Mammoth

Cannot run over heavy infantry with the exeption of blackhand and shocks. All other infantry can be crushed without delay.
Rifle infantry
Increase protection against rockets drasticly
Disintegrators
Damage to rifle infantry reduced 75%

Explanation:

The whole reason why this needs to be changed is that anti tank and anti air vehicles don’t become anti infantry vehicles. Infantry should be counters to tanks and anti infantry vehicles as well as rifle infantry should be the counters of rocket infantry. Now Scorps Mantisses and Slingshots completely overshadow real anti infantry option. These changes will not only make spam better counterable but it will also make the anti infantry vehicles as well as anti infantry more worth their role. Maybe the APC, and the gun walker needs a buff to infantry for this but I’m not sure about that yet.

Vertigo bomber

Cost and or reload time decrease to 8 seconds reload and 1500 cost seems fine to me. Vertigo's can fly away from the field while reloading

Explanation:

Makes them not such an huge investment anymore as well, they can get to their targets faster. The reload bug needs to be removed so that you can fly your veritgo away before the enemy destroys your airfield. As it is now they cannot fly away while reloading. This bug can cost you almost 10.000 worth of credits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 4/21/09 4:38:52 PM

Re:Super_Stunner

Was one of the little balance posts i enjoyed reading, BUT i don't agree with some, first of all the disints... they *** everything right now, if it wasn't their joke-ish HP they would have been endgame units, in fact the *** epic units too easy, you don't dare to crush em and their high damage and inscreased range makes 6-7 of them beat an EPIC in seconds, i think they need a big damage nerf and a big HP and a small armor buff.

IMO the hexapod mustn't be able to teleport at all, better keep the phase bonuses as is and disable epics to be teleported at all rather than not be able to teleport when EMPed, and explain me 2 things

1.what do you mean 2 mins cooldown when epic dies?

2.and about tripod, mamoth, and avatar not able to crush inf... you mean crush everything but bh and shocks or those are crushable? because if those 2 are out only zone troopers and zone raiders remain uncrashable and are both gdi faction based units which means they get a big advantage... because nod commando can't do crap to a mammoth....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 4/21/09 11:11:58 AM

1.what do you mean 2 mins cooldown when epic dies?

2.and about tripod, mamoth, and avatar not able to crush inf... you mean crush everything but bh and shocks or those are crushable? because if those 2 are out only zone troopers and zone raiders remain uncrashable and are both gdi faction based units which means they get a big advantage... because nod commando can't do crap to a mammoth....

1. I mean that it takes 2 minutes before you can build a new epic unit

2. With the seconds change I mean that they cannot crush heavy and commando's, all other infantry they can without any delay.

Hi,
because of such an important topic i feel free to post my own opinions.

Juggernaut: Its attack range/strentgh/rot is fine, as long as it hits buildings.
Nerf it vs tanks. It should be used to kill camping players with t3 defence buildings not masstanks.

Specter: Same as jugg.

Flametank: Once its broken through a undefended part of a base its dealing too much dmg to buildings and is getting promoted to fast.
Give it a HP buff to make it a more useful weapon vs infantries as long nod has nothing effective vs infspam but nerf its strengh against buildings.

Infspam BH: Personally i didnt find any solution there which could fix the balance here. Rockettroopers r still very important as defending unit in early game. Nerfing them would make everybody much more vulnerable in early game to rushes but keeping them as they r wouldnt be so good either. Decrease range, buff dmg?

Prodigy: The teleporting and instantly after it mindcontrol ability is too strong. Waiting for 2 seconds would nerf it too much. My suggestion would be decreasing the range of teleporting but decreasing the cooldown.

Stealthtanks: Nerf it to TW 1.8 dmg. Reduce dmg with upgrade.

Epics: Decrease healthpoints. Theyre simply rolling over everything and dont require any skill. Too much cost efficience.

Disintegrators: Make it cost 350 or 400. Too spammable and doing too much damage. Hp dmg is fine, fix rate of building here.

Nod vein detonation: Makes too much dmg and can kill the whole army without any chance running away from it due too the bug.
(units still get dmg, even if theyre out of the field)

Corrupters: Increase range of heal but make only 1 corrupter can heal one unit at the same time. Repair apc/rig can also only repair one unit at the same time and this would fix the imbaness of hexa epic and corrupter combo.

Bugs: Shadowteambug, sometimes when they land after a flight, they dont shoot at units.
Movement bugs reverse: If u press to fast the hotkey for reverse they ignore it and drive forward or do turns which let them die faster in fights. Especially gdi and nod harvesters and the apc.
Emp as mok. Moving for a couple of seconds and doing the emp afterwards.
Emp grenades as gdi. Not as bad as mok, but still not working perfectly.
Emp with buggys. If they die and the emp didnt emp the units yet but the effect was released the unit dont gets emped.
Orcas: They ignore sometimes the attack move with the A button, or when units stand next to ur airfield and u want to kill the units which r attacking ur orcas.

thx

Popular Platforms

Popular Genres

EA.com

Help